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Eliyahu, kan de Moshiach opstaan uit de dood?

  • BOAZ

    Ja volgens de Chabadniks wel.

    Lees en geniet.

    We begin our inquiry into the topic with the most legitimate part of Torah Judaism one offer: the Talmud. In the following fascinating Aggadic piece, several great sages present their opinions as to whom the Moshiach would be, were he to arrive in their time. We now quote the great sage Rav, whose opinion is most relevant to our discussion.

    Rav states:

    “If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)…”

    Sanhedrin 98:B

    Shocking as it may be for many, Rav seems to include those who have already died (such as Daniel the prophet), as legitimate Messianic candidates. Even more shockingly, no other sage in the Talmud seems to even take issue with it.

    Rashi's first interpretation (NOTE: It is well known that Rashi's first interpretation is his favored interpretation) of this quote provides further clarification of this point. Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:

    “This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be ‘Daniel Ish Chamudos’…”

    Rashi-“Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh” 98:B

    Considering the current climate among today's Jewry towards the notion of a ‘Resurrected Redeemer’, one might expect to find a plethora of Talmudic commentaries questioning and analyzing how such an ‘untraditional’ suggestion could be made. Yet, we find no such uproar. In fact, the opposite is the case; not even a hint of disapproval or surprise can be found from amongst the (at least twenty) major commentaries that discuss this page of Talmud.

    The silence of these commentaries speaks volumes. The absence of any objection made to Rav's statement or Rashi's interpretation of it, means that among the true Torah sages of the Talmud, the notion that Moshiach could come from the dead was always accepted and uncontested. This concept was far from the source of indignation and imprecation it has become in our recent history.

    If one source is not enough, other explicit references to the legitimacy of a ‘Resurrected Redeemer’ are not difficult to come by. In his work entitled, “Yeshuas Meshicho,” Torah giant Rav Don Issac Abarbanel writes as follows:

    “Do not be amazed by the fact that that Moshiach can be one of those who will rise in Techiya (resurrection), because this possibility was already considered by our sages in Gemara Sanhedrin.” (Iyun Sheni, Perek Alef)

    In the encyclopedic work of the Sedei Chemed, entitled “Pe'as Sadeh” we find a similar theme. This highly authoritative work contains the following quote:

    “There are two ways the redemption may materialize…if the Jews posses great merit, the advent of Moshiach will be of the miraculous and spiritual order, as it is written in Daniel- ‘Moshiach will arrive atop a heavenly cloud’…concerning this possible manner of Moshiach's coming the Gemara states ‘if he comes from the dead it will be Daniel Ish Chamudos.’”

    Peas Sadeh-Maareches Alef, Os Ayin

    Further support for this concept can be found in the Rambam. This is notable, because the Rambam is one of the few Torah sages who compiled comprehensive halachic qualifications Moshiach must fulfill. He, therefore, is a distinctive authority to be used in determining what disqualifies a messianic candidate. He writes as follows:

    “And if he (the potential Moshiach) has not succeeded until this point (compelling all the Jewish people to follow Torah ways, and fighting the wars of Hashem) or is killed, it is assured that this is not the one (Moshiach) about whom the Torah has promised…”

    Mishna Torah-Hilchos Melachim/Laws of Kings 11:4

    We now turn our focus to the Rambam's choice of words “…or is killed…”. The Rambam is well known for his precise wording in the Mishne Torah. Many decisions, which drastically affect lives, are made, based on a word or even a letter of the Rambam. Why is this important to us? Because if it is true, as many critics claim, that Moshiach can only come from the ranks of the living, the wording of this Rambam is inexplicable. Allow me to explain.

    If simply dying, in any way, disqualifies a potential Moshiach, then why didn't the Rambam simply say: “If Moshiach dies”-then he cannot be Moshiach? This would have disqualified all Messianic candidates regardless of how they died. Apparently, to the Rambam things are not quite so simple.

    In spite of the fact that the vast majority of Jewish history's righteous sages died natural deaths, the Rambam chooses a highly limiting word-“killed” as the invalidating criterion“. The clear implication here is that only if a potential Moshiach is killed (such as Bar Kochba who lost his life in combat) is he disqualified, but should such an individual die a natural death-he remains a valid Messianic candidate. There is no other coherent way to understand this Rambam.(NOTE: Obviously, all the other criteria of the Rambam must be fulfilled as well in order to remain a Messianic candidate. Questions regarding how these other criteria are being fulfilled by the Rebbe will be dealt with in a later chapter: See ”The Rebbe and the Rambam")

    From all the Torah sources quoted above, the following conclusion becomes blatantly obvious:

    While the concept of ‘Moshiach from the dead’ may be foreign in the eyes of a great deal of today's Jewry, it is not so in the eyes of the Torah. And for a Jew, the Torah view is the only one that need be consulted. We must place our trust in the Torah, not emotional qualms, to guide us on this topic, just as we do with every other aspect of our lives.

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    Boaz.

  • CU.

    Natuurlijk kan dat.

    Als je had geweten van 2 Koningen 13:21 dan had je deze vraag niet behoeven te stellen.

    met groet, CU.

  • CU.

    Je trekt wel volle zalen met je topic.

    Wat voor soort discussie had je verwacht?

    Met groet, CU.

  • Elia

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2dN3wFI318

    Dat doodgaan en weer opstaan komt zelfs heden ten dage nog in India en omstreken voor. Leerlingen begraven hun meester en graven hem na een afgesproken tijd weer op. Uiteraard is dit omgeven door allerlei rituelen.

    Het gaat soms zelfs zo ver dat het lichaam van de weder opgestane meester al in staat van ontbinding is.

    Overigens kan zo iemand ook bepalen wanneer hij doodgaat. Er zijn daar heel wat meesters geweest die zeiden; dan en dan ga ik dood.

    Dit alles voor jouw informatie, ik wist dit allang!

    Het is trouwens niet eens zo moeilijk hoor, om dat te doen.

    In lichte mate wordt dat ook gedaan met sterven op; “Echad”

    Overigens zie ik het nut er niet van in, waarom de Messias zich van dergelijke occulte handelingen zou bedienen?

    Ellen

  • PS

    Pfffffffffffffffff. Ze kunnen jou ook alles wijs maken.

    PS

    :)

  • BOAZ

    CU. schreef:

    >

    > Je trekt wel volle zalen met je topic.

    >

    > Wat voor soort discussie had je verwacht?

    Niet veel CU.

    Ik weet wat een anti-missionair is.

    Brute leugens en intimidatie.

    Boaz.

    >

    > Met groet, CU.

  • BOAZ

    Jij kan wel denken veel te weten.

    Maar het dringt nog niet tot jou door dat je volledig van de pot gevallen bent.

    Boaz.

  • PS

    Beste Elia,

    zo'n truukje zou je veel geld opleveren. Pluk een ontbindende maar levende goeroe uit India n toon hem aan de vereniging Skepter. Een mooi geldbedrag is jouw deel.

    Die goeroes bedienen zich van truuks. Meer niet. Niks magie.

    En de Jezus die na zijn dood verscheen, was een vizioen. Lees maar eens goed de NT-teksten. Jij als “psychologe” zou dat ook moeten lezen in die teksten.

    PS

    :)

  • Eliyahu

    BOAZ schreef:

    >

    > CU. schreef:

    > >

    > > Je trekt wel volle zalen met je topic.

    > >

    > > Wat voor soort discussie had je verwacht?

    >

    > Niet veel CU.

    > Ik weet wat een anti-missionair is.

    > Brute leugens en intimidatie.

    Bs'd

    Voor brute leugens kijk hier: www.geocities.com/bergZion/bruteleugens.html

    En hier: www.geocities.com/bergZion/NTprofetieen.html

    Eliyahu = "Mijn God is J-H-W-H

    “Hoor Israel, J-H-W-H is onze God, J-H-W-H is ÉÉN!”

    Deut 6:4

    “Want alle volkeren wandelen elk in de naam van zijn god, maar wij zullen wandelen in de naam van J-H-W-H onze God, voor eeuwig en altijd!”

    Micha 4:5

  • Eliyahu

    PS schreef:

    >

    > Pfffffffffffffffff. Ze kunnen jou ook alles wijs maken.

    Bs'd

    Jouw niet dan? Ze hebben jouw wijsgemaakt dat een kikker in een prins veranderde, en je gelooft het nog ook.

    Eliyahu

    Het fossielenverslag laat STASIS zien, en geen evolutie, zie hier: www.geocities.com/wegvel/fossielenNL.html